21 comments

  • dgrin91 5 hours ago
    I kind of presumed that 'sex warfare' (aka seduction) was a standard aspect of espionage (even though no one openly acknowledges it), so this seems like nothing new
    • IAmBroom 1 hour ago
      And it's traditionally called a "honeypot", not "sex warfare", but that is clearly a clickbait decision.
    • arethuza 5 hours ago
      Robert Baer's book "See No Evil" goes into a lot of detail about how espionage actually works:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/See_No_Evil_(Baer_book)

    • decimalenough 5 hours ago
      The popular image of seductive spies a la Bond girls is that they target senior government officials, businessmen and diplomats, not pasty IT geeks.
      • IAmBroom 1 hour ago
        And the popular image of jewel thieves is that they universally drop down from the ceiling, instead of entering from a cherrypicker truck through a smashed window.
      • TheOtherHobbes 5 hours ago
        Businessmen and diplomats don't know the API keys.
  • nabla9 5 hours ago
    I'm sure spies also operate on platforms like OnlyFans and can extract secrets even without physical interaction.

    The number of lonely male tech workers who engage in parasocial relationships online is not insignificant. Twenty years ago, I never would have believed that people would pay money just for some written or verbal acknowledgment from someone on the internet. Attractive female whom men "support" for an illusory relationship can milk thousands from some people.

    Getting security clearances after background check shows payments of this type is probably difficult.

    • Simulacra 1 hour ago
      What's worse or maybe even more sad, is that these accounts hire people, sometimes men and women, to pretend and interact with "fans". The one paying the money is not even talking to the actual person, and I think this is happening to both men and women, there's a lot of lonely people on both sides out there
    • smallnix 5 hours ago
      >Attractive female whom men

      What is it on the Internet with calling women 'females'? I'd understand if you had written 'males' and 'females' OR 'men' and 'women'. This indicates an attempt at objectification to me.

      • palmotea 35 minutes ago
        > What is it on the Internet with calling women 'females'? I'd understand if you had written 'males' and 'females' OR 'men' and 'women'. This indicates an attempt at objectification to me.

        It's probably the new concept of treating "gender" as distinct from sex, and the attempt to claim terms like "man" and "woman" and make them ambiguous with regards to sex. So some people who want to be specific increasingly use sex terms like "male" and "female" instead.

      • rich_sasha 4 hours ago
        In fairness OP also refers to men as "males". Then later "men".

        I don't have a view one way or another but maybe this time it isn't about women.

        • smallnix 4 hours ago
          I missed that one, thanks. This changes the optics on this for me.

          I guess I am more attuned to this when the topic is "'sex warfare' by beautiful Russian and Chinese young women on nerds".

      • lapsis_beeftech 4 hours ago
        Male and female are preferred terms because they are objective and emotionally neutral while avoiding the sexism of misusing the word "man" to mean male human.
        • dijit 3 hours ago
          I'm not here to spark a debate or anything. just wanted to share a quick note on etymology since you mentioned "sexism", and I'll bow out after this. You do you!

          Historically, "man" comes from Old English "mann," which originally meant "human being" or "person" in a gender-neutral way, without specifying male or female. Back then, the word for a male human was actually "wer" (like in "werewolf"), and for female, it was "wif" (as in "wife"). Over time, "man" shifted to primarily mean "male," but terms like "mankind" hung onto that older, inclusive sense.

          So, using "man" in the "mankind" context isn't really a misuse or inherently sexist: it's tapping into the word's original roots. That said, I get why folks prefer "male" and "female" for clarity today. Peace!

          • smallnix 2 hours ago
            > using "man" in the "mankind" context isn't really a misuse or inherently sexist

            I understand the ethymologic perspective, but the above statement is part of on-going discussion.

            E.g. > To refer to all human beings, use terms like “individuals,” “people,” or “persons” rather than “man” or “mankind” to be accurate and inclusive.

            https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-...

            I personally like 'man' as it had a poetic ring to me. I also think it makes sense to pay attention to the differing perception of language, as I want to be able to communicate effectively with all kinds of people.

      • surgical_fire 3 hours ago
        Many people speaking in English are not native speakers, even when they communicate fluently - such as yours truly.

        I use "Males" or "Men", and "Females" or "Women" interchangeably. This is the first time I see anyone indicating there is a connotation for objectification there.

      • ttoinou 5 hours ago
        Isnt objectification required to make the point here? We’re talking about spies
        • smallnix 3 hours ago
          I should have been more precise, I meant one-sided objectification. I thought the point would come across with my 'OR' example.
  • hbarka 5 hours ago
    This sounds so fantastical and almost nonsense. Marrying and having kids all as a ruse? I smell propaganda or tall tales of weekend Ian Flemings.
    • n4r9 5 hours ago
      Not quite the same thing but in the UK there have been a number of scandals around undercover police officers infiltrating activist groups, entering into relationships and fathering children with genuine members, then disappearing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relatio...
      • smallnix 5 hours ago
        Good example for the extreme lengths people go to. Yet there is a huge difference in effort of fathering a child vs. pregnancy and delivering a child. Regardless of the parent in either case disappearing afterwards.
        • n4r9 4 hours ago
          True, there's a big difference both in personal effort and the impact it has on the other party. I recently watched a Netflix spy drama "Black Doves" in which a prominent politician's wife turns out to be a spy contracting agency plant, who's had two kids with him. That really would be fantastical. I'm not aware of any real cases of it happening where the agent is female (and nor is Claude code FWIW) - the linked article provides some evidence in the form of hearsay.
      • RickJWagner 2 hours ago
        That’s horrific. The children go through life at a huge disadvantage.
        • bn-l 1 hour ago
          Just another day in Britain.
    • rsynnott 4 hours ago
      There was at least one case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Barsky

      But yeah, the idea that it's happening at scale seems somewhat farfetched.

    • kitd 5 hours ago
      They are known as sleeper agents - in this case "sleeper" being particularly apposite.
    • ChrisMarshallNY 5 hours ago
      Russia is known for doing exactly that (not a story). Looks like China is borrowing from the same playbook. China has also planted “sleeper” spies, who join companies at a junior level, then rise through the ranks, until they can access real stuff. Wouldn’t surprise me, if the US and Israel have done the same.

      America has a bling problem; especially younger folks. It’s our Achilles heel. There are Americans who will sell out our nation for a pittance, just so they can strut around, looking cool.

      • wahern 4 hours ago
        > Wouldn’t surprise me, if the US and Israel have done the same.

        The US doesn't have the institutions or culture in place to recruit and shepherd people into that kind of espionage. Or any espionage, really. We're notoriously horrible at HUMINT. With the possible exception of a brief period during the Cold War, we've always been hopelessly obsessed with developing and wielding technological solutions, not without some success, to be fair. Why spend $10 million on building a long-term HUMINT espionage program when we can pay Palantir $10 billion to run contractors to steal secrets remotely.

        Israel... I dunno. Given the deep cultural and social ties and relatively easy mobility, and the fact most of the US and Israeli defense and information sectors are privatized and diffuse, Israel can probably just rely on poaching people, much like a corporation. By contrast, China's problem until recently has been brain drain. Chinese want to move to the US, China can just leverage that demand and flow of people.

        I'm not sure Americans are any more susceptible to bribery than elsewhere. We're a tremendously wealthy country, with median incomes nearly twice those of even some wealthy Western European countries. The problem with recruiting established professionals is that access to highly valuable information is strongly correlated to career success, and career success means you have much more to lose, and thus less incentive to accept bribes, especially given how harsh our sentencing is compared to most of the rest of the world. (I wouldn't be surprised if corporate espionage results in longer prison time here than China, notwithstanding that for the really severe defense-related cases China will quickly put you to death, as shown by the recent CIA asset fiasco.) Most bribery cases seem to be low-level wage employees without much to offer except in exceptional situations, or government or military workers being paid much less than market rate compared to their counterpart in private industry. Elsewhere, the high-profile, high-level cases, most of the time it's not even clear the accusation is well founded.

        While the current state of corporate espionage seems much more opaque, looking back at the history of French corporate espionage might be worthwhile. I don't know much about the specifics, but during the 1980s and 1990s France had a notoriously brazen corporate espionage program, much of which has been well documented and researched, so useful for understanding how it works generally.

      • pjc50 5 hours ago
        > America has a bling problem; especially younger folks. It’s our Achilles heel.

        And one particular 79 year old.

      • tessierashpool9 5 hours ago
        Maybe I should try the same, join company at junior level, rise through the ranks until finally some Russian and Chinese spies come an seduce me.
        • TheOtherHobbes 5 hours ago
          Enjoying the seduction while being aware of it and "accidentally" failing to provide any required info would be an interesting reverse UNO.

          Although you would run the risk of being murdered. So there's that.

          • tessierashpool9 4 hours ago
            there always has to be a catch ... I'm up for it nonetheless!
      • FooBarBizBazz 4 hours ago
        1. Yes re. first paragraph. There are many examples from the nuclear program.

        2. No re. second paragraph(?). How many of the recent high profile "leaks" have been driven by money? Most seemed ideological.

        That said, when you read stories of people who did perform espionage for money, the dollar amounts are usually embarrassing. "Just do leetcode, bro."

        • ChrisMarshallNY 4 hours ago
          Leaks aren’t espionage.

          I doubt we hear about the real damage.

    • rapsey 5 hours ago
      That is because you live a life of a normal citizen. A life where daily sociatal rules apply. You likely have not seen war, or been involved in organised crime on either side of the law.
    • scotty79 5 hours ago
      I wouldn't say it's a ruse. More like a government promoted lifestyle that through financial encouragement leads to poaching a valuable employee from another country.
  • nreece 6 hours ago
  • MrThoughtful 5 hours ago
    Apart from the "warfare" aspect, it is an interesting question whether the combination of "The man is attractive because of money" and "The woman is attractive because of her looks" can work.

    When I look at instances in my social circle, it seems like it doesn't really work. The relationships typically seem to suffer from a lack of mutual interests. The woman's beauty quickly dwindles as time passes. And the woman feels like she is missing out on a "real life" because all she does is be at the side of the man, instead of building her own career. The attraction of the man seems to dwindle quickly too. I know a few such couples, where the man told me that their sex life is dead, even though he wished it were different.

    What that tells me is that to work on your attractiveness, working on your career is not the way to go.

    • satisfice 5 hours ago
      Many people have no interest at all in building a career. (Of the four adults who live in my home, only I want to participate in the economy.) Lots of people, including, I bet, the majority of sober-minded women. Want security and emotional support.

      The match-up of pretty female and ambitious and successful male can and has worked through all of history. Yes beauty fades, which is why there better be other layers of connection, but that doesn’t have to be shared interests. I share very little interests in common with my wife of 34 years. We don’t connect in that way. We connect on the level of mutual respect, mutual need, and mutual service.

      Our society has become so disconnected from concepts like “respect” and “service.” We are amusing ourselves to death, as the saying goes. But these things work. They are timeless.

      • glimshe 4 hours ago
        My wife hates videogames, retrogaming, electronics and history videos on YouTube.

        Yet, we spend 1 hour hanging out in the morning every single day while we drink together the coffee I make in a $25 drip coffee machine.

        Secret of a long marriage! 20 years going strong.

        • satisfice 1 hour ago
          Cheers! I learned only during a Covid quarantine that I need to spend a certain period of time in her presence, a few times per day— not even doing or necessarily saying anything— to feel really okay.
    • fakedang 5 hours ago
      In my circle, I've seen it work, not in the same way though. Attractive women often go after the wealthiest men they can get. Likewise the minute a man goes out of a job, the strain in the marriage becomes immediate in a dual income household; less likely in households where the man was the sole breadwinner. The greater the difference in incomes and/or wealth, the more likely the marriage is going to last. And no, these aren't observations from some theocratic shithole in the Middle East or some ultra conservative Asian circles. These are from all the most liberal cities in the world.
      • IAmBroom 1 hour ago
        And there is data to suggest children of high earners tend to be more attractive, for just this reason.

        A woman who is a 9 out of 10, but not inclined or able to make her own high-earning career, can jump to the head of the income line by marrying a wealthy man. No one is surprised by this, but there are certainly some genetic consequences.

        Of course, children of high-income families have better access to dental care, pimple medicine, and so forth, in the US.

  • fxtentacle 5 hours ago
    People seem to forget just how rural the Chinese countryside is. Just showing up as a western-looking guy in the right club in Singapore is enough to get marriage offers. I don’t think there’s any evil plan, just some truly desperate women trying to escape their future.
    • em500 5 hours ago
      Maybe I'm missing something, but what does the rural Chinese countryside have to do with clubs in Singapore?
      • fxtentacle 48 minutes ago
        Singapore is the closest melting pot that is both easy to reach for Chinese tourists and contains enough rich guys to make the trip worthwhile.
      • blitzar 5 hours ago
        Americans get confused easily.
      • delta_p_delta_x 4 hours ago
        Singapore is an increasingly attractive place for mainland Chinese people to park their money, or attempt to make their fortunes, given the ambivalent-to-hostile attitudes to the PRC in the rest of the world.

        Since COVID, Singapore's retail scene has been almost entirely overtaken by Chinese chains. Coffee chains like Luckin Coffee, Chagee, and more are sprouting up everywhere, including in the heartlands. Ma la hotpot/stir fry outlets follow, and then there are the Chinese bubble tea chains like Mixue.

        The underbelly is also entirely of mainland Chinese stock. Sex workers, masseuses, and KTV hostesses in Singapore are majority mainland Chinese, who collect tens of thousands a day from men who patronise these establishments.

      • glimshe 4 hours ago
        I suppose it isn't super easy for these women to find Westerners in rural China. Thus, they leave China in look of a future, going to places in Asia where meeting wealthy men is more likely (such as in Singapore).
    • decimalenough 5 hours ago
      I presume you are aware of this, but for those who may not be, Singapore is both not China and the polar opposite of rural Chinese countryside. It does, however, have numerous sketchy nightclubs staffed with prostitutes from rural China (and Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam etc) who would dearly love to have a personal ATM.

      Also, the reason Singapore doesn't have Bangkok's sexpot image is that these clubs are waaaaaay more expensive, squarely targeted at Chinese speakers (although there is an equivalent Indian scene) and whiteys are a rare sight.

      https://www.ricemedia.co/the-secret-business-of-thai-disco-a...

    • rubansk 4 hours ago
      I’m singaporean and have never heard about “marriage offers” in clubs being a thing. Maybe I’m going to the wrong ones.
    • 4gotunameagain 5 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • 55555 5 hours ago
        Actually this stereotype is about Chinese women. Thai women aren't that materialistic, and where it is true, it only applies to poor Thai women, who are attracted to the man because he's probably 1,000X richer than her, which would be attractive to a poor woman from anywhere. If a prince from Lichenstein came to rural USA, he'd have no trouble dating.

        This thread is bizarre and confusing. There's only been like 5 posts and already people are conflating rural Chinese, Singaporeans, and Thais.

        • IAmBroom 1 hour ago
          "Thai women aren't that materialistic" is incongruous with the West's image of Thailand as the home of pervasive prostitution, trafficked or otherwise.

          Which is more accurate?

        • 4gotunameagain 5 hours ago
          It takes only a single documentary to disprove your claim that this is just a stereotype. There are so many about cringe westerners that buy thai wives.
      • tomhow 1 hour ago
        Please don't post like this on HN. We've asked you several times to make an effort to observe the guidelines.

        https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

  • fullofbees 5 hours ago
    I like that there's three examples. Two named, who are both men and then one woman who is mentioned by an anonymous source and if she's real, doesn't sound that unlike (at least in moral terms) to the crypto evangelist archetype.
  • sixhobbits 5 hours ago
    Reminds me of a scene from Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson (great book)

    ...

    "Preparing my report," Lawrence says. "Doesn't do me any good to make observations if I don't send them out."

    "Quite right," Margaret says thoughtfully.

    This is an excellent time to stoke the chapel's pathetic iron stove. He puts in a few scoops of precious coal, his worksheet, and the page from the one-time pad that he has just used to do the encryption. "Should warm up now," he says.

    "Oh, lovely," Margaret says, "I'm all shivery."

    Lawrence recognizes this as his cue to initiate a rescue operation. About fifteen seconds later, he is up there in the hammock with Margaret. To the great surprise of neither one of them, the quarters are awkward and tight. There is some flopping around which ends with Lawrence on his back and Margaret on top of him, her thigh between his.

    She is shocked to discover that he has an erection. Ashamed, apparently, that she did not anticipate his need. "You poor dear!" she exclaims. "Of course! How could I have been so dense! You must have been so lonely here." She kisses his cheek, which is nice since he is too stunned to move. "A brave warrior deserves all the support we civilians can possibly give him," she says, reaching down with one hand to open his fly.

    Then she pulls the grey wool over her head and burrows to a new position. Lawrence Pritchard Waterhouse is stunned by what happens next. He gazes up at the ceiling of the chapel through half-closed eyes and thanks God for having sent him what is obviously a German spy and an angel of mercy rolled into one adorable package.

    When it's finished, he opens his eyes again and takes a deep breath of cold Atlantic air. He is seeing everything around him with newfound clarity. Clearly, Margaret is going to do wonders for his productivity on the cryptological front--if he can only keep her coming back.

  • stevenwilkin 5 hours ago
  • atleastoptimal 5 hours ago
    The only hard evidence (besides the story about the Russian woman marrying the guy in Aerospace) this article offers is some guy getting a few LinkedIn requests, and two Chinese women trying to get into a conference. There is nothing specific about Chinese/Russian spies seducing normal silicon valley tech workers or marrying them for trade secrets.
    • rapsey 5 hours ago
      Also female chinese spies stealing tech secrets is a running joke in SV.
  • trippyballs 5 hours ago
    so if i become a cracked engineer there is chance of precipitation.
  • defrost 5 hours ago
    What, no honeytrap catamites?

    The Peter Thiel's of SV are presumed immune from sexpionage by The Times?

    • IAmBroom 1 hour ago
      Yes. It's clickbait, and poorly researched - if at all.

      Also, a gold star for inserting the obscure word "catamite" into the discussion!

      • defrost 16 minutes ago
        I've always been fond of the first sentence of Earthly Powers.
  • freefaler 5 hours ago
  • qwery 5 hours ago
    When a news article has an outrageous headline it's usually not worth reading.

    This article jumps right in the deep end, quoting a Silicon Valley insider:

    > I’m getting an enormous number of very sophisticated LinkedIn requests from the same type of attractive young Chinese woman,

    Now on the first read you might think "is that it?" -- is this seriously what the article is about? But the same insider also said:

    > It really seems to have ramped up recently.

    So yeah, like I said.

    • lostmsu 1 hour ago
      To be fair the amount of that kind of spam over Telegram increased for me over the last year from non-existent to bi-weekly or so.
  • wosined 5 hours ago
    I mean, if that's the only option...
  • bjourne 5 hours ago
    British tabloid owned by Rupert Murdoch.
    • rsynnott 5 hours ago
      Unusually for a Murdoch thing, not a tabloid; while I'd be _somewhat_ suspicious of its output, especially its commentary, it's not in the same class as things like The Sun or Fox; closer to WSJ (also Murdoch) in terms of editorial independence/attachment to reality.
    • defrost 5 hours ago
      Err, you might want to at least watch Succession if you can't keep up with the IRL drama.

        In September 2023, News Corp reported that Rupert Murdoch would retire from the board of News Corporation. He would also retire from the board of Fox Corporation and his son Lachlan Murdoch would replace him on both boards. The retirement would take effect in November 2023.
      
      ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_of_Rupert_Murdoch

      The siblings voting rights in NewsCorp are inactive / on hold or somesuch and Lachlan has his block and his dad's, and there's a slew of detail.

      • bjourne 5 hours ago
        You're probably right. I trusted Google's summary: "Rupert Murdoch's News Corp owns the British newspaper The Times and its sister paper, The Sunday Times. Both are published by Times Newspapers Ltd, a subsidiary of News UK." which might be incorrect.
        • rsynnott 4 hours ago
          That's all correct. The only slightly questionable bit might be control of News Corp, but, realistically, it's not unreasonable to consider it to still be Rupert Murdoch's.
  • rapsey 5 hours ago
    A funny thread about this theme: https://x.com/HououinTyouma/status/1978942235413561393

    On a serious note. The Chinese will go to great lengths to steal tech that they want. I have heard some interesting stories regarding fake cell towers and phone tapping next to factories and not for some crazy important tech either. Just something the Chinese did not yet know how to do and wanted to compete without spending years of R&D.

  • alganet 6 hours ago
    I already said this before: You're a dirty ass computer nerd, and a beautiful woman approaches you? Definitely a trap. Maybe a spy, maybe a scammer, maybe someone insane.

    Same with friendships, all sorts of things. Someone that's super into the same things as you and appears to help you and encourage you like a friend you never had? That's not a friend, guarantee you.

    • dmpk2k 5 hours ago
      Maybe my circle is unusual, but almost none of the programmers I know live down to the popular stereotypes. Most of them are popular, and a third are jacked.

      You need to get out more for your own good.

      • alganet 5 hours ago
        Most programmers are not worth spying on or even scamming. That's fine.

        "dirty ass programmer" contrasted with "beautiful woman" is a stereotypical example, but not a rule. It represents an asymmetry in typical social interactions. If you're getting much more than you deserve, it's a trap. Got it?

    • reaktivo 5 hours ago
      > Definitely a trap. Maybe a spy, maybe a scammer, maybe someone insane.

      You fail to imagine that someone who threats you like shit can also be any of those things.

      • alganet 5 hours ago
        Maybe I just didn't mentioned it.
    • djohnston 5 hours ago
      Downvoted by marks XD
  • nakamoto_damacy 5 hours ago
    except Silicon Valley is not where its at.. i can see it for military contractors and scientists at national labs but not Silicon Valley unless the target is working on quantum computers or true frontier AI (not OpenAI bs lol)
  • black_13 4 hours ago
    [dead]