A few decades back when I was a PhD student a British university I taught an undergraduate class and I noticed that the quality of writing in their examination papers and projects was clunky and awkward, in contrast to the admirable, free-flowing, everyday style the way they wrote (as they spoke) on their student bulletin boards. I used to wonder why they didn't write like this in their classwork.
Years later, when writing my thesis I'd routinely find myself at a loss of how to communicate a concept. The solution was always to write down my answer to the question "what are you trying to say".
Young academics try to signal that they know what they’re doing so they end up cargo-culting dense technical writing that they can’t yield well and just end up with bad writing.
It takes a lot of confidence to write academic material in a natural conversational tone because they’ve internalized a rule that says “if it’s easy to understand, I won’t come off as smart enough to belong”.
Back in 94, when I first started using speech recognition (Dragon Dictate, word-at-a-time recognition) I had a curious experience. I could feel the difference between speaking spoken speech and speaking written speech. Now I've been using speech recognition for so long, I now swap back and forth relatively easily. This ability to switch how I speak comes in handy when writing dialogue or a speech.
The end result is when speaking, I use a slightly more formal version of speech, and that helps me organize my thoughts on the fly in conversation. When speaking written speech, I speak more formally than I do in conversation, but the pacing and pattern is different. I think ahead of what I want to say and then try out 2 or 3 different forms before I actually say what I want into the recognition environment. Then I let Grammarly tell me how I'm an uneducated hick that don't speak good.
My current best way to write is to just write everything that amuses me, then go back and edit out the tangents, and then usually reverse the order of the paragraphs.
A common suggestion is to put the bottom line on the top line. Consider all the articles posted even here that make the reader suffer through the writer's own thinking process before getting to the point.
I don’t know. When I jam out a comment I seem to summarize at the end when I’m done, and then I reread quickly and see the summary made a weird conclusion but was a fine introduction.
I always understood it as advice for school children who don't know how to express themselves in writing and end up with a blank page. You are encouraged to imagine you're talking to someone to overcome the hurdle of translating thoughts into words.
I remember editing my then girlfriend’s (now wife) papers in university, when she was struggling to explain something succinctly. I’d ask her: well what are you trying to say? And she would explain it to me, clear as day. “Just write that.”
This is largely where I'm ending up, but I started at the other end.
There is value in prose that carries your literal voice when the audience is _people who know you_. There is negative value in writing prose that requires the audience to _read it in your voice_ in order for it to make sense, avoid offense, or convey intent.
My prose changed first: it became plain spoken, as devoid of contextual subtlety as I could make it. My career benefitted. My spoken interactions followed.
The only thing that bothers me about it is the nagging sense that I've become so fucking boring.
I also started at the other end, in the sense that from an early age and for the rest of my life I have spent a lot more time chatting over text than with spoken word.
It would be easy if all you had to do was make it simpler, but I don't think that's it. Good writers always sound like themselves, you're reading along and you feel like there's a whole person there saying something to you, it's really them and not anyone else. It's magic.
If the average person tries following this advice they'll probably end up with something simpler sounding, and still bad. Which I guess is better than overly complicated and bad? I don't know, doesn't matter, both are bad.
One thing I know for sure though is writing like you talk is dressing down. Sometimes that's good, like when you want to be relatable and down to earth, or maybe you're saying you're a tech bro type, moving fast and no time for nonsense. Other times you should be more formal though.
Again, the great writers don't care, they just pick whatever level of formality makes sense and do their thing.
I mean it's advice from the same man who thought "delve" - a 6000 year old, monosyllabic word used by Shakespeare and Tolkien - was too complicated and should not be used.
I am not sure we should be taking him as a literary authority.
Most of the time when people say they 'write like they talk' it's to excuse putting filler words and fluff in their writing to try to squeeze some cheap 'authenticity' instead of focusing on clear simple sentences.
It usually comes off as excessively childish for multiple reasons, including the fact that you can just not write filler words where not saying them can take practice.
It’s a very good post — and I do agree with the main ideas. It’s pretty remarkable how good writers like Scott Alexander and others are able to consistently pump out good writing, especially when the key does seem to always comes down to clarity (and mostly revision for me). Maybe reps are able to give that over time, but even with getting older and now being able to bounce ideas off LLMs == it still takes me so many iterations before I feel like my prose / ideas / outlines are worth sharing.
One superpower I wish I had is the incredible summarizing into single sentences that you can see in the LLM web UIs when they automatically make a title for a discussion.
If by "train" you mean "learn", it occurs to me you could try applying the "CAR story" interview technique of relating a story in 3 sentence (one each for the Challenge, Action and Result). Once you have it down to 3 sentences, distilling it into one, or producing a title, should become doable. HTH
I would like to see them include some analysis of the first recorded audio conversations such as on wax cylinders or the 1930s WPA/Federal Writers’ Project. Was sentence complexity the same as it is now?
The focus on clarity of thought is a modern shift, or at least the "modern preference". Hemingway was a big proponent on short, direct sentences and few or no adjectives.
In the 1800s and early 1900s, complex sentence structure signaled intelligence for both the author and reader. It was a form of entertainment, in a way, when books were few and nights were long. Try reading Henry James for an idea about what this looked like in practice. Shakespeare is another obvious example of "heightened language" besides archaic words the play are written in iambic pentameter and the spoken text is far from natural (yet incredibly precise).
I don't agree that one should "write like they talk." Certain forms of writing are fundamentally a higher and more complex register of language, because they have gone through more rounds of refinement and editing, while speech is generally composed one-shot; you can't "go backwards" and make edits to your speech, except by going forwards and issuing more speech to make corrections and amendments to what you've already said. That is, speech is "write once," given the fact that it needs to be composed extemporaneously.
Try talking like an academic on the street - you'll get laughed out of the alleyway. Informal conversation often needs to target the lowest common denominator, which is the most you can expect from the average person out in the "real world;" that is, of course, unless you are reading from a prepared speech - which is the composition of a speechwriter, prepared ahead of time, instead of improvised on the spot. Writing can target more advanced audiences because you're not limited by space and time to the people in your immediate vicinity, but people who self-select into your subject matter - for instance, on fora like this one, which represent a small minority of technically inclined readers.
One can write extemporaneously in this style - that's the IRC and chatroom register of written speech, and it has its place, but I don't think this is the form of writing that the author of the article had in mind. For instance, I doubt that this article was composed one-shot in an IRC chatroom and then published verbatim, but went through many rounds of editing. That's not how "people really talk."
Of course, if one is in more enlightened company, their informal, extemporaneous speech can start to take on more complexity and jargon. You need to target your communication to your audience.
For what it's worth, most of this post was written one-shot with minimal revision, but with pauses to think about what to write next. These kinds of pauses are usually known as "awkward" in every day speech over beers. I will maybe go over the post and make some edits as I read over it again.
Being a mediocre writer, I don't know what it means to write like you talk, but I know I've noticed a strong correlation between how ornate one's language is and how little one knows what they're talking about. The people who know the most use the simplest words, and if someone uses complicated language, they're either trying to deceive or to hide the weaknesses of their argument.
This only goes for specific cases, of course. E.g. it probably applies more to business language than to novels.
It means someone I know irl clocked my Hackernews account because how I write on here closely corresponds with how I actually speak. Which is—okay, yeah, guilty as charged I guess. Must've been all that IRC in the 90s.
How I write is better than how I talk, because by definition I have more time to think. So I aim for the opposite - I aim to spontaneously talk the way I write.
And academic and technical writing should absolutely be lexically dense. It's not poetry, you're trying to express information as efficiently as possible.
I cannot agree with this after reading transcripts of Trump's speeches. It does make sense in some scenarios, but writing like one speaks only works for people who speak clearly and effectively; unfortunately most people are terrible communicators.
Maybe more an effective rhetorician than communicator. I suppose his communication does match the clarity of thought though... it's just that the thoughts are so jumbled he says 3 things that contradict each other in the same breath.
the point of rhetoric is persuasion or flattery, the point of communication (or argument as its usually framed going all the way back to Plato) is to accurately convey an idea or concept. In your average Trump speech the point is usually to evoke an emotion in his audience, not so much arguing anything in particular.
Shew, if I wrote like I talked to other people it would be an entertaining disaster. When you speak, you're speaking to your specific audience, which could be your boss, your toddler, your spouse, your friend of 25 years, your in-laws, your candor in giving a presentation, this list goes on.
I write how I think, and how I think is profoundly shaped by reading, listening, and absorbing.
Write how you talk seems almost arrogant. Writing is an expression of an idea, and how I speak vs. how I write are so vastly different it really does amuse me to chew on this.
I suppose TFA is mostly focused on academic writing [0] (article quote) but the vast, vast majority of people in this world today are not writing academically, they're posting here, or sending a text, or work emails. Good writing means you don't need to assume everyone is an expert or a non-expert. The first thought that comes to my mind here is "mansplaining".
[0] So the common advice to "write like you talk" can be underspecified. It's good to avoid pretentious and formulaic cliches that mask the absence of precise thought, and separately to avoid dense and impenetrable jargon that's hard for non-experts to understand.
This is easy to say if you can write, but, what if you are trying to write in a second language?
As an English person, I can write reasonably well without having to know what any of the technical terms for writing mean. I don't need to know any formal rules for writing in different tenses, and even Oxford commas just happen automagically. I can break the rules too, not that I even know what the rules are.
Over the years I have worked with a lot of people from other parts of the world that have English as their second language. They can't write in English purely on instinct, 'writing as one might talk', they are stuck trying to remember the rules and the billions of exceptions to the rules that English has, just to make it hard for the second-language crew. Of course, in Britain, we can slip into Cockney Rhyming Slang, Glaswegian or West Country Speak (tm), for not even the Irish or the Americans to understand us.
Hence, I wonder about the author. Is English his first language? We are in 'true Scotsman' territory here, and a native English speaker is just going to write, they are not going to write verbose articles such as this one.
Put it this way, a true English speaker has absolutely no idea what a 'past participle' is. They have absolutely no need to know. Whereas the German, speaking his most humourous English, gained from many years of study and watching TV, absolutely knows what a 'past participle' is, but they haven't the foggiest if someone English says 'take a butchers'.
Um, er, um, the, um, real problem with writing as one talks is, er, you know, sometimes, we, er, put in lots of ums and ers. That is the real danger of 'writing as one talks', but, when editing the ums out, we dabble and wreck that flow of words that sounded great but didn't look too great on the page.
> Hence, I wonder about the author. Is English his first language? We are in 'true Scotsman' territory here, and a native English speaker is just going to write, they are not going to write verbose articles such as this one.
If he’s not, his writing indicates a native level of fluency.
There are absolutely native English speakers who write like this. Some of them even get degrees studying the language.
> haven't the foggiest if someone English says 'take a butchers'.
I’m a native English speaker and I have no idea what “take a butchers” means, so possibly not the best example. I assume this is a Britishism.
Years later, when writing my thesis I'd routinely find myself at a loss of how to communicate a concept. The solution was always to write down my answer to the question "what are you trying to say".
It takes a lot of confidence to write academic material in a natural conversational tone because they’ve internalized a rule that says “if it’s easy to understand, I won’t come off as smart enough to belong”.
The end result is when speaking, I use a slightly more formal version of speech, and that helps me organize my thoughts on the fly in conversation. When speaking written speech, I speak more formally than I do in conversation, but the pacing and pattern is different. I think ahead of what I want to say and then try out 2 or 3 different forms before I actually say what I want into the recognition environment. Then I let Grammarly tell me how I'm an uneducated hick that don't speak good.
Source: Writing for more than half my life and HN has liked some of my articles in the past
I literally use my iphone voice to text to transcribe, then go back and edit.
It’s surprising that more people aren’t doing it
I’d love a great voice IDE
There is value in prose that carries your literal voice when the audience is _people who know you_. There is negative value in writing prose that requires the audience to _read it in your voice_ in order for it to make sense, avoid offense, or convey intent.
My prose changed first: it became plain spoken, as devoid of contextual subtlety as I could make it. My career benefitted. My spoken interactions followed.
The only thing that bothers me about it is the nagging sense that I've become so fucking boring.
"Write in a way that makes your readers feel like you are talking to them."
Which seems like an epistolary version of one possible (maybe also better specified) paraphrase
Unless, unless you're AI?
If the average person tries following this advice they'll probably end up with something simpler sounding, and still bad. Which I guess is better than overly complicated and bad? I don't know, doesn't matter, both are bad.
One thing I know for sure though is writing like you talk is dressing down. Sometimes that's good, like when you want to be relatable and down to earth, or maybe you're saying you're a tech bro type, moving fast and no time for nonsense. Other times you should be more formal though.
Again, the great writers don't care, they just pick whatever level of formality makes sense and do their thing.
I am not sure we should be taking him as a literary authority.
It usually comes off as excessively childish for multiple reasons, including the fact that you can just not write filler words where not saying them can take practice.
I wonder if there’s a way to train that ability.
I have to imagine it comes down to study and practice, just like everything else.
but the idea is dubious: writing/reading is a different transaction than speaking/listening.
In the 1800s and early 1900s, complex sentence structure signaled intelligence for both the author and reader. It was a form of entertainment, in a way, when books were few and nights were long. Try reading Henry James for an idea about what this looked like in practice. Shakespeare is another obvious example of "heightened language" besides archaic words the play are written in iambic pentameter and the spoken text is far from natural (yet incredibly precise).
Try talking like an academic on the street - you'll get laughed out of the alleyway. Informal conversation often needs to target the lowest common denominator, which is the most you can expect from the average person out in the "real world;" that is, of course, unless you are reading from a prepared speech - which is the composition of a speechwriter, prepared ahead of time, instead of improvised on the spot. Writing can target more advanced audiences because you're not limited by space and time to the people in your immediate vicinity, but people who self-select into your subject matter - for instance, on fora like this one, which represent a small minority of technically inclined readers.
One can write extemporaneously in this style - that's the IRC and chatroom register of written speech, and it has its place, but I don't think this is the form of writing that the author of the article had in mind. For instance, I doubt that this article was composed one-shot in an IRC chatroom and then published verbatim, but went through many rounds of editing. That's not how "people really talk."
Of course, if one is in more enlightened company, their informal, extemporaneous speech can start to take on more complexity and jargon. You need to target your communication to your audience.
For what it's worth, most of this post was written one-shot with minimal revision, but with pauses to think about what to write next. These kinds of pauses are usually known as "awkward" in every day speech over beers. I will maybe go over the post and make some edits as I read over it again.
This only goes for specific cases, of course. E.g. it probably applies more to business language than to novels.
And academic and technical writing should absolutely be lexically dense. It's not poetry, you're trying to express information as efficiently as possible.
"George, you can type this shit, but you can’t say it!"
It clearly works for him - I hate how he talks, but he seems to be an effective communicator if you only judge by results. Sadly.
presumably also advice from them.
What’s the difference?
I write how I think, and how I think is profoundly shaped by reading, listening, and absorbing.
Write how you talk seems almost arrogant. Writing is an expression of an idea, and how I speak vs. how I write are so vastly different it really does amuse me to chew on this.
I suppose TFA is mostly focused on academic writing [0] (article quote) but the vast, vast majority of people in this world today are not writing academically, they're posting here, or sending a text, or work emails. Good writing means you don't need to assume everyone is an expert or a non-expert. The first thought that comes to my mind here is "mansplaining".
[0] So the common advice to "write like you talk" can be underspecified. It's good to avoid pretentious and formulaic cliches that mask the absence of precise thought, and separately to avoid dense and impenetrable jargon that's hard for non-experts to understand.
This is easy to say if you can write, but, what if you are trying to write in a second language?
As an English person, I can write reasonably well without having to know what any of the technical terms for writing mean. I don't need to know any formal rules for writing in different tenses, and even Oxford commas just happen automagically. I can break the rules too, not that I even know what the rules are.
Over the years I have worked with a lot of people from other parts of the world that have English as their second language. They can't write in English purely on instinct, 'writing as one might talk', they are stuck trying to remember the rules and the billions of exceptions to the rules that English has, just to make it hard for the second-language crew. Of course, in Britain, we can slip into Cockney Rhyming Slang, Glaswegian or West Country Speak (tm), for not even the Irish or the Americans to understand us.
Hence, I wonder about the author. Is English his first language? We are in 'true Scotsman' territory here, and a native English speaker is just going to write, they are not going to write verbose articles such as this one.
Put it this way, a true English speaker has absolutely no idea what a 'past participle' is. They have absolutely no need to know. Whereas the German, speaking his most humourous English, gained from many years of study and watching TV, absolutely knows what a 'past participle' is, but they haven't the foggiest if someone English says 'take a butchers'.
Um, er, um, the, um, real problem with writing as one talks is, er, you know, sometimes, we, er, put in lots of ums and ers. That is the real danger of 'writing as one talks', but, when editing the ums out, we dabble and wreck that flow of words that sounded great but didn't look too great on the page.
If he’s not, his writing indicates a native level of fluency.
There are absolutely native English speakers who write like this. Some of them even get degrees studying the language.
> haven't the foggiest if someone English says 'take a butchers'.
I’m a native English speaker and I have no idea what “take a butchers” means, so possibly not the best example. I assume this is a Britishism.