> You get to deploy your server logic directly into the database
> You may make use of the Licensed Work provided your application or service uses the Licensed Work with no more than one SpacetimeDB instance in production and provided that you do not use the Licensed Work for a Database Service.
Therefore, as an OSS product, SpacetimeDB does not scale.
Nice! I like learning about databases but got a bit of "framework fatigue" when I started reading about all the number of dbs available today (and deciphering marketing from tech notes).
This article hooked me with the comparison at the beginning.
I used to scoff at redis' single threaded design but it makes sense in a memory bound db. This article is a great example of taking that high-performance approach and designing parallelization around it. SO COOOL.
Also, it's SO interesting that here's yet another example of how performant the actor model can be. It's an old design (Communicating Sequential Processes was published in 1984!) but it works so well in our current hardware.
From a developer's perspective actors are very easy to reason about. I'm curious to try out Spacetime in a project now. Organizing server logic into databases, sub-databases, tables and reducers is intriguing.
The intro section is a good summary of why distributed SQL databases (Spanner, roach, Yugabyte, TiDB) haven't taken off in the market in the same way as say distributed data warehouses have (Snowflake, Databricks, FabricDW, Clickhouse, etc.).
I would add a few other things to the list of scaling problems. Some SQL features are hard to scale out (auto_increment/serial columns, unique secondary keys, foreign keys, etc.). Some SQL query operators are hard to scale out for OLTP queries that want low latency and high throughput (DISTINCT, LIMIT/TOP-N, non-collocated joins). I take it SpacetimeDB is a nosql database, so these problems are less important to them?
As to how spacetimedb plans to scale out, I didn't follow it fully. It's hard to take the spacetimedb folks seriously (see: https://strn.cat/posts/spacetime/).
I'm a cofounder of SpacetimeDB (and the author of OPs article). The https://strn.cat/posts/spacetime/ article has several substantial errors. I've spoken with Vicent directly about them.
Most notably, almost the entire commentary about durability is incorrect. SpacetimeDB does not acknowledge anything before data is fully persisted to disk, even though he claims it does. Clients CAN chose to listen before that, but you can do the same thing in Postgres if you want.
There is no 50 ms delay to writing to disk. The article is mostly nonsense.
He spent 15 minutes looking at our code (by his own admission), having never written a storage engine before AFAIK, and made a pronouncement that SpacetimeDB wasn't a good database. Crazy stuff.
I've pushed teams to choose Spanner over using Postgres (when already in the GCP ecosystem). It's not really more expensive when you sit down and do the math, you save untold hours of maintenance over the lifespan of the app, and it actually scales without fuss.
I think one of the maybe less talked about benefits of distributed SQL is support for nearly transparent rolling upgrades of the database with very little impact to a running workload. Spanner is best in class at this.
I was waiting for a comment like this. It's not like there aren't any projects that should be thinking about "scale", but it's almost a meme at this point. There is even the section there near the beginning about how small web apps without many users 'may have to think about horizontal scaling as well' - no, no they don't. To take part in the meme as well, a single server with Postgres will suffice for what? 99% of companies?
Yeah, I just always say 'it sure does!' ; not like people who make remarks like that will try / know how to try anyway. And if they do, even the largest prototypey crap we make can do 10-100x what sales/marketing expects (and they overshoot estimates always).
I don't know the answer so take this as a shitpost, but: investors and companies are throwing a lot of money in AI, not gamedev backends. AI reoriented companies are being sold with valuations in the billions.
From what I understand, they are building out an MMO using spacetime. Sort of dogfooding it. Not saying that means it scales, but at least they will experience the painpoints just like anyone else using it
Plus the hundreds of other users doing exactly the same thing, building games, tools, products with stdb which has been really cool to see. It's super cool tech imo. I made an obsidian sync plugin with it which was neat.
> You may make use of the Licensed Work provided your application or service uses the Licensed Work with no more than one SpacetimeDB instance in production and provided that you do not use the Licensed Work for a Database Service.
Therefore, as an OSS product, SpacetimeDB does not scale.
This article hooked me with the comparison at the beginning.
I used to scoff at redis' single threaded design but it makes sense in a memory bound db. This article is a great example of taking that high-performance approach and designing parallelization around it. SO COOOL.
Also, it's SO interesting that here's yet another example of how performant the actor model can be. It's an old design (Communicating Sequential Processes was published in 1984!) but it works so well in our current hardware.
From a developer's perspective actors are very easy to reason about. I'm curious to try out Spacetime in a project now. Organizing server logic into databases, sub-databases, tables and reducers is intriguing.
I would add a few other things to the list of scaling problems. Some SQL features are hard to scale out (auto_increment/serial columns, unique secondary keys, foreign keys, etc.). Some SQL query operators are hard to scale out for OLTP queries that want low latency and high throughput (DISTINCT, LIMIT/TOP-N, non-collocated joins). I take it SpacetimeDB is a nosql database, so these problems are less important to them?
As to how spacetimedb plans to scale out, I didn't follow it fully. It's hard to take the spacetimedb folks seriously (see: https://strn.cat/posts/spacetime/).
Most notably, almost the entire commentary about durability is incorrect. SpacetimeDB does not acknowledge anything before data is fully persisted to disk, even though he claims it does. Clients CAN chose to listen before that, but you can do the same thing in Postgres if you want.
There is no 50 ms delay to writing to disk. The article is mostly nonsense.
Ask Claude yourself: https://github.com/clockworklabs/SpacetimeDB
He spent 15 minutes looking at our code (by his own admission), having never written a storage engine before AFAIK, and made a pronouncement that SpacetimeDB wasn't a good database. Crazy stuff.
I have doubts that a global readwrite lock around a hashtable makes for a good general purpose storage system.
The guy is currently a micro-celebrity for the storage engine he wrote: https://cursor.com/blog/git-at-any-scale
I think one of the maybe less talked about benefits of distributed SQL is support for nearly transparent rolling upgrades of the database with very little impact to a running workload. Spanner is best in class at this.
This is a VM with 64 vCPUs running at 3.5GHz, with 256GB RAM.
It presently costs about ~3USD per hour to run.
We hoped for tens of users.